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Can cheating be helpful, and the solution to cheat detection.

#2

Training neural networks on people who cheat against each other deliberately is a creative idea.

Training neural networks on people who cheat against each other deliberately is a creative idea.
#3

When I watch master games I see interesting abstract principals at play; I am able to understand these higher level principals when I see them, yet I am not able to get my games to those positions where these principals happen, because the “play style” at lower levels doesn’t allow for these positions.

agreed, but nothing wrong either with playing simple and effective chess at any level

https://lichess.org/jXyVAhC1IXVV

> When I watch master games I see interesting abstract principals at play; I am able to understand these higher level principals when I see them, yet I am not able to get my games to those positions where these principals happen, because the “play style” at lower levels doesn’t allow for these positions. agreed, but nothing wrong either with playing simple and effective chess at any level https://lichess.org/jXyVAhC1IXVV
#4

@PowerEnt That's a great idea!

And I can confirm that using an opening book during the game is a good way to practice openings, because it's allowed in Correspondence games.

Reading your post I had a somewhat related idea: if a player is regarded a cheater by an automatic cheat detection algorithm, instead of being banned they could be put into a "cheater pool" and only be paired against other players from that pool. Without their knowledge, of course.
I see this might be problematic, because the suspected cheaters would have no way to appeal. But I like the idea that this might keep them from just creating a new account and start all over again. :-)

@PowerEnt That's a great idea! And I can confirm that using an opening book during the game is a good way to practice openings, because it's allowed in Correspondence games. Reading your post I had a somewhat related idea: if a player is regarded a cheater by an automatic cheat detection algorithm, instead of being banned they could be put into a "cheater pool" and only be paired against other players from that pool. Without their knowledge, of course. I see this might be problematic, because the suspected cheaters would have no way to appeal. But I like the idea that this might keep them from just creating a new account and start all over again. :-)
#5

@supercaravelle said in #4:

@PowerEnt That's a great idea!

And I can confirm that using an opening book during the game is a good way to practice openings, because it's allowed in Correspondence games.

Reading your post I had a somewhat related idea: if a player is regarded a cheater by an automatic cheat detection algorithm, instead of being banned they could be put into a "cheater pool" and only be paired against other players from that pool. Without their knowledge, of course.
I see this might be problematic, because the suspected cheaters would have no way to appeal. But I like the idea that this might keep them from just creating a new account and start all over again. :-)

That's actually a great idea, I do believe they do this to some extent, but probably don't let on (because that might spoil it's efficacy to some extent)

The creator of lichess talks about this, I beleive in this talk: Lichess founder Thibault Duplessis lectures on Lichess (2017) at the 21:00 mark. He says "It's hard because they notice it" but I wonder if he is just not wanting to let on that this does work.

I know chesscom has differnt pools for players they regard as more probably cheating or not.

@supercaravelle said in #4: > @PowerEnt That's a great idea! > > And I can confirm that using an opening book during the game is a good way to practice openings, because it's allowed in Correspondence games. > > Reading your post I had a somewhat related idea: if a player is regarded a cheater by an automatic cheat detection algorithm, instead of being banned they could be put into a "cheater pool" and only be paired against other players from that pool. Without their knowledge, of course. > I see this might be problematic, because the suspected cheaters would have no way to appeal. But I like the idea that this might keep them from just creating a new account and start all over again. :-) That's actually a great idea, I do believe they do this to some extent, but probably don't let on (because that might spoil it's efficacy to some extent) The creator of lichess talks about this, I beleive in this talk: Lichess founder Thibault Duplessis lectures on Lichess (2017) at the 21:00 mark. He says "It's hard because they notice it" but I wonder if he is just not wanting to let on that this does work. I know chesscom has differnt pools for players they regard as more probably cheating or not.
#6
  • If you want to improve by "cheating", play a bot, and you will never get time trouble, so you can think even deeper some of the times !
  • For me, analyzing my games RIGHT AFTER the game helps a lot. I play through some sequences that could have happened looking at the engine's move options. That makes you understand. It has helped me stop doing recurring mistakes.
  • There should be an option on lichess like "engines allowed". GMs play correspondence with engines sometimes (they agree on this. You should not CHEAT your opponent please).
- If you want to improve by "cheating", play a bot, and you will never get time trouble, so you can think even deeper some of the times ! - For me, analyzing my games RIGHT AFTER the game helps a lot. I play through some sequences that could have happened looking at the engine's move options. That makes you understand. It has helped me stop doing recurring mistakes. - There should be an option on lichess like "engines allowed". GMs play correspondence with engines sometimes (they agree on this. You should not CHEAT your opponent please).
#7

@MetalKingOfKings said in #6:

If you want to improve by "cheating", play a bot, and you will never get time trouble, so you can think even deeper some of the times !
For me, analyzing my games RIGHT AFTER the game helps a lot. I play through some sequences that could have happened looking at the engine's move options. That makes you understand. It has helped me stop doing recurring mistakes.
There should be an option on lichess like "engines allowed". GMs play correspondence with engines sometimes (they agree on this. You should not CHEAT your opponent please).

Completely agree with what you are saying; I have never cheated once, and I don't plan on it. I think it's highly unethical.

@MetalKingOfKings said in #6: > If you want to improve by "cheating", play a bot, and you will never get time trouble, so you can think even deeper some of the times ! > For me, analyzing my games RIGHT AFTER the game helps a lot. I play through some sequences that could have happened looking at the engine's move options. That makes you understand. It has helped me stop doing recurring mistakes. > There should be an option on lichess like "engines allowed". GMs play correspondence with engines sometimes (they agree on this. You should not CHEAT your opponent please). Completely agree with what you are saying; I have never cheated once, and I don't plan on it. I think it's highly unethical.
#8

PowerEnt you said chess is not beneficial for your life LIE! IT IS!
()Chess helps you think when you are in a tight position
()Chess can help you practice concentration
()Chess is relaxing, and can soothe you
()Many, many more

PowerEnt you said chess is not beneficial for your life LIE! IT IS! ()Chess helps you think when you are in a tight position ()Chess can help you practice concentration ()Chess is relaxing, and can soothe you ()Many, many more
#9

@France_sun said in #8:

PowerEnt you said chess is not beneficial for your life LIE! IT IS!
()Chess helps you think when you are in a tight position
()Chess can help you practice concentration
()Chess is relaxing, and can soothe you
()Many, many more

Yes, you are right. Maybe I wasn't articulate enough. I meant I'm not interested in chess in the ways its not relevant to the rest of life. So I like chess in the ways it helps me learn how to think etc. But I'm not interested in opening theory, because it only relates to the game of chess.

So I'm interested in the meta game, but but not the game. So when it comes to using cheating to get better at chess this seems like a lose - lose to me. Yes it would help me in chess, but only chess. If the reasons for playing chess are to be better at life, it seems this dishonest approach would do the apposite. Yes I would get better at chess (just like learning opening theory) but would I get better at thinking? I dont think so.

@France_sun said in #8: > PowerEnt you said chess is not beneficial for your life LIE! IT IS! > ()Chess helps you think when you are in a tight position > ()Chess can help you practice concentration > ()Chess is relaxing, and can soothe you > ()Many, many more Yes, you are right. Maybe I wasn't articulate enough. I meant I'm not interested in chess in the ways its not relevant to the rest of life. So I like chess in the ways it helps me learn how to think etc. But I'm not interested in opening theory, because it only relates to the game of chess. So I'm interested in the meta game, but but not the game. So when it comes to using cheating to get better at chess this seems like a lose - lose to me. Yes it would help me in chess, but only chess. If the reasons for playing chess are to be better at life, it seems this dishonest approach would do the apposite. Yes I would get better at chess (just like learning opening theory) but would I get better at thinking? I dont think so.